Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT_ZIP/spacedig/V16_3/V16NO309.ZIP/V16NO309

Internet Message Format | 1993-07-13 | 24KB

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 93 05:31:27
From: Space Digest maintainer <[e-mail]>
Reply-To: [e-mail]
Subject: Space Digest V16 #309
To: Space Digest Readers
Precedence: bulk


Space Digest                Sat, 13 Mar 93       Volume 16 : Issue 309

Today's Topics:
    Cancels & Clari.* was Re: Threat of mass cancellings (3 msgs)
                 cancel wars accountability (3 msgs)
Clementine and the Moon (was Re: plans, and absence thereof) (3 msgs)
                                 DC-X
                     Gaspra Animation (QuickTime)
                         Lunar Ice Transport
                            NASA and gold
                          Retraining at NASA
            Soviet Energia: Available for Commercial Use?
               Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anon
Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue (3 msgs)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 1993 00:38:56 GMT
From: David Clunie <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cancels & Clari.* was Re: Threat of mass cancellings
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy

In article [e-mail], [e-mail] () writes:
>[e-mail] writes:
>   I think I will probably just turn off response to cancel messages totally if
>
>That will cause quite a problem if you take a clari.* feed.
>
>   It seems to me they are rarely used for other than controversial purposes

I don't get a clari feed (unfortunately) - what is the significance of
clari.* feeds and cancel messages ?

---
David A. Clunie ([e-mail])

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 1993 00:55:17 GMT
From: "Richard H. Miller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cancels & Clari.* was Re: Threat of mass cancellings
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Clunie) writes:
>
> I don't get a clari feed (unfortunately) - what is the significance of
> clari.* feeds and cancel messages ?

The clarinet groups aggressivly use cancel messages to manage the contents of
their newsgroups. Articles are removed via this mechanism rather than letting
them expire.

--
Richard H. Miller                 Email: [e-mail]
Asst. Dir. for Technical Support  Voice: [phone]
Baylor College of Medicine        US Mail: One Baylor Plaza, 302H
                                           Houston, Texas 77030

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 93 05:09:42 GMT
From: Michael Moroney <[e-mail]>
Subject: Cancels & Clari.* was Re: Threat of mass cancellings
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy

[e-mail] (David Clunie) writes:

>In article [e-mail], [e-mail] () writes:
>>[e-mail] writes:
>>   I think I will probably just turn off response to cancel messages totally if
>>
>>That will cause quite a problem if you take a clari.* feed.
>>
>>   It seems to me they are rarely used for other than controversial purposes

>I don't get a clari feed (unfortunately) - what is the significance of
>clari.* feeds and cancel messages ?

Clarinet uses cancels or supersedes to remove an old copy of a story when
they post an updated copy.  For a rapidly-developing story there can be
quite a few cancels/reposts of the story a day.

-Mike

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 93 01:19:35 GMT
From: 8 February 1993 <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

If do not think Richard E. Depew's ([e-mail]) threat to censor
the postings *you* may wish to read by beginning a "canceling war,"
a good idea, please write directly to:

Prof. John Docherty, M.D., Ph.D., Director,
Department of Microbiology/Immunology
NEOUCOM (Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine)
Rootstown, OH  44272

or call him at [phone]

You may also wish to copy:

William Dorsey, Manager,
Computer Services NEOUCOM
Rootstown, OH  44272

Express your concern for this threatened instance of network vandalism and
damage to academic freedom throughout the world by a reputed representative
of his organization.
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------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 1993 05:18:59 GMT
From: Tarl Neustaedter <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>[...] please write directly to:
>
>Prof. John Docherty, M.D., Ph.D., Director,
>Department of Microbiology/Immunology
>[...]

Since you are so easy about dispensing the names of managers of individuals
you have a gripe with, would you care to provide us with the name and
addresses of your managers and system administrators?

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 1993 05:41:55 GMT
From: Tarl Neustaedter <[e-mail]>
Subject: cancel wars accountability
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy,sci.space,sci.astro,news.admin.policy

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>[...] please write directly to:
>
>Prof. xxx xxxx, M.D., Ph.D., Director,
>Department of Microbiology/Immunology
>[...]
>or call him at (xxx) xxx-xxxx
>
>You may also wish to copy: [...]

You have a gripe with Mr. Depew. Your response is to provide the net at large
with the addresses and phone numbers of his manager and sysadmin, and request
that they be mail-bombed.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Would you care to allow us
to know the names and addresses of your managers and sysadmins?

I realize this request is rhetorical, your ethics don't extend to exposing
yourself to the harrasment you wish upon others.

Julf, this attack really extends beyond the pale of what any reasonable
administrator will condone. Will you finally shut this asshole off?
    Tarl

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 93 12:30:19 GMT
From: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clementine and the Moon (was Re: plans, and absence thereof)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (Martin Connors) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
> (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>> The major purpose of Clementine is to test SDI sensors in space. As
>> long as they need to fly a couple of UV-visible and IR cameras, and a
>> laser altimeter/LIDAR, they decided to do some lunar and asteroid
>> science with them.
>
> I heard about Clementine in detail at the 'Asteroid Hazard' meeting in
> Tucson in January. The SDI people were taken to task by a noted scientist
> for trying to stretch the limits of the anti-missile-missile treaty by not
> testing this sort of stuff in NEO where it would be directly forbidden,
> but sending the same equipment into Deep Space and testing it there.

Yes, I understand that this is a deliberate dive through a loophole in
the ABM Treaty.  I learned this from somebody working on Clementine.
I haven't checked the treaty's provisions to see what the details are.

Reviewing *Time Trax*: "In this future  | Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey
police have gotten more technical,      | Fermilab
computers have gotten much smaller,     | Bitnet: [e-mail]
criminals have become much cleverer,    | Bitnet: [e-mail]
and matte painters                      | SPAN/Hepnet: 43011::HIGGINS
have lost the secrets of their ancestors." --Mark Leeper

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 93 03:13:57 GMT
From: "Robert M. Unverzagt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clementine and the Moon (was Re: plans, and absence thereof)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Martin Connors) writes:
> In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
> (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
> > The major purpose of Clementine is to test SDI sensors in space. As
> > long as they need to fly a couple of UV-visible and IR cameras, and a
> > laser altimeter/LIDAR, they decided to do some lunar and asteroid
> > science with them.
>
> I heard about Clementine in detail at the 'Asteroid Hazard' meeting in
> Tucson in January. The SDI people were taken to task by a noted scientist
> for trying to stretch the limits of the anti-missile-missile treaty by not
> testing this sort of stuff in NEO where it would be directly forbidden,
> but sending the same equipment into Deep Space and testing it there.
>
> Any knowlegible people have a comment? Apart from the moral aspects
> Clementine sounds like a dream mission.
>

What moral aspects?

> Disclaimer: above may seem a bit evasive but direct quotes from what was
> said at the meeting are not appropriate in this context.
>
Shag


--
       Rob Unverzagt        |
  [e-mail]   |       Tuesday is soylent green day.
[e-mail] |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 02:44:33 GMT
From: Henry Spencer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Clementine and the Moon (was Re: plans, and absence thereof)
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Martin Connors) writes:
>I heard about Clementine in detail at the 'Asteroid Hazard' meeting in
>Tucson in January. The SDI people were taken to task by a noted scientist
>for trying to stretch the limits of the anti-missile-missile treaty by not
>testing this sort of stuff in NEO where it would be directly forbidden...

I would be somewhat surprised if this were the case.  SDIO flies sensor
tests constantly, including several orbital tests in the last few years.
As I recall, the ABM treaty explicitly permits technology tests -- what
it forbids is testing of anything resembling an integrated operational
system.  And as far as I know, it makes no distinction between low Earth
orbit and other areas of space.
--
C++ is the best example of second-system| Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
effect since OS/360.                    |  [e-mail]  utzoo!henry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 03:10:47 GMT
From: Dave Michelson <[e-mail]>
Subject: DC-X
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail]
(Andy Cohen) writes:
>
>They were MOST interested in hearing about YOUR support.
>
>I agreed to carry hard copies of posts from here to their facility as a
>morale booster.....they say they work 40 hour days there....... and are
>looking forward to months in the desert.......They do not know about how
>this communitee feels about their efforts...so SPEAK UP!!

Your description of your tour of the DC-X was one of the most exciting posts
that I've ever read here!  History as it happens and all that.  Wow!

It goes without saying that the DC-X team certainly have *my* support.

Pete Conrad being a Navy guy and all that, what can I say except
"Bravo Zulu"....

---
Dave Michelson                             University of British Columbia
[e-mail]                                  Antenna Laboratory

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 1993 01:28 UT
From: Ron Baalke <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gaspra Animation (QuickTime)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary

                       ==============================
                              GASPRA ANIMATION
                                March 12, 1993
                       ==============================

     The Gaspra animation is now available at the Ames Space Archives in
QuickTime format.  The animation was formed from 11 images taken by the
Galileo spaecraft shortly before its closest approach to the asteroid in
October 1991.  The animation is available using anonymous ftp to:

        ftp:      ames.arc.nasa.gov (128.102.18.3)
        user:     anonymous
        cd:       pub/SPACE/ANIMATION
        files:
                  gaspra.qt
     ___    _____     ___
    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | [e-mail]
    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
 ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | It's kind of fun to do
/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | the impossible.
|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | Walt Disney

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 01:17:08 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Lunar Ice Transport
Newsgroups: sci.space

What about using a cable tramway ? You'd need ~ five thousand kilometers
of steel or aluminum cable, and maybe two thousand tall aluminum poles
with pulleys on top. Plus some metal hooks to hang the ice-blocks on.

    Gains:  Do not have to bulldoze 3000 km. road across crater-fields.
            Do not need fleet of ice-hauling vehicles.
            Do not have to catch ice-blocks moving at orbital speeds.

    Losses: Cable break = shut down whole line until repaired.
            Might be hard to dig post-holes in regolith.

    (not to           .=+=.__________________.=+=.______________
     scale)         .`  |    []       []       |       ------>
                  .[]   |                      |      to equator
      ice station`      |      .%. ..    .%%.  |
    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

( Also, return cable can carry tourists to newly built polar ski resort :)
--

 Lance Purple                   | My posts are NOT |
 IBM Corporation, Austin TX     | IBM's opinions.  |

------------------------------

Date: 13 Mar 1993 00:38:12 -0500
From: Pat <[e-mail]>
Subject: NASA and gold
Newsgroups: sci.space

Actually,  I imagine the HQ staff is mostly  congressional relations
and PR and that sort of thing.  Very few people are involved in
design, operations, etc  unless they have moved up to managing
budgets for science programs.  the really large programs maintain
separate offices elsewhere.

pat

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 01:52:33 GMT
From: Brian Donnell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Retraining at NASA
Newsgroups: sci.space

Major sigh...I think most of us within NASA who read these
threads look at them with a sense of resignation. People
like Nick Szabo and Tom McWilliams are so misinformed,
it's depressing to even attempt to correct them.

But let me be absolutely clear from the beginning.
I think it *is* NASA's fault that they are misinformed.
NASA's PR in general has been pathetic (until very
recently). JPL, for example, has great PR, and that's
why people like Tom realize they do great work (and they
*do* in fact do great work). However, the other elements
of NASA are also just as productive and capable. And the
counter-example is true - there are several major flubs
on JPL's record too.

I do not pretend to claim that there haven't been any
mistakes in the design and implementation of NASA
programs, for there have been many. But that is the
nature of things when you are doing things for the
first time - and I sometimes think people forget that's
what we're doing. I would further argue that no
collection of private consortiums could have done *any*
better with the given resources.  I know this is a
badly bruised and beaten horse, but the fact of the
matter is that the lack of vision in Congress has been
a major contributing factor to many of NASA's difficulties.
Most (if not all) of the frustrating shortcomings in Shuttle
and Station are due to inadequate, unrealistic and
fickle funding.  The technological know-how within NASA
is there.  The bureaucracy of government procurement
forced on NASA is another stumbling block.  If Congress
could find the wherewithal to commit to a multi-year
project, we might have had Station years ago.

Brian Donnell
NASA/Johnson Space Center

on temporary assignment to:

NASA/Ames Research Center

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 93 15:22:28 EST
From: Chris Jones <[e-mail]>
Subject: Soviet Energia: Available for Commercial Use?
Newsgroups: sci.space

In article <[e-mail]>, sbooth@lonestar (Simon E. Booth) writes:
BTW- are we to assume that Energia evolved out of the N-1?

I don't think so.  They look nothing alike, have different numbers of stages,
use different propellants, and have different numbers of engines.

>Unless I'm mistaken, N-1 was supposed to exceed the launch thrust of the
>Saturn V, something like 9 or 10 million pounds of thrust vs. the Saturn's
>7.5 million.

That's true.  I believe that the N-1 would have had a lower payload to the moon
than a Saturn V, however, because the structure and fuel mass was higher.
--
Chris Jones    [e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 93 17:23:04 CST
From: Jason Burrell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anon
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy

In <[e-mail]>, [e-mail] (David Clunie) writes:
> In article [e-mail], [e-mail] (Dave Hayes) writes:
>
> >[e-mail] (David Clunie) writes:
>
> >>>     I am testing a shell script to carry out "Automated Retroactive
> >>>Minimal Moderation" in response to Julf's (and your) suggestion that
>
> >How very nice of you.
>
> In trimming your response you edited this to make it look as if this proposal
> was made by me !@#$
>
> It should be attributed to [e-mail], [e-mail]
> (Richard E. Depew).
>
> I was in fact decrying Richard's suggestion ... please be more careful with
> your editing ... I in no way want to have my comments construed as
> endorsing Richard's proposal for unreasonable behaviour of cancelling other
> people's posts. I strenuously oppose his suggestion.
>
> ---
> David A. Clunie ([e-mail])
>
Just cut this entire message out. This guy is apparently a nutcase so
don't give him the satisfaction. As has been said, this moron has
probably caused many admin. to disable cancels all together.


--
[e-mail]
Device Driver Stacker.sys not found. Hit (P) to panic!
--
Any information provided in any note written by this user ID is under
the standard disclaimer. The author is not responsible for negligent use
of ANY information given in said note.

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 1993 19:21:40 -0600
From: Karl Denninger <[e-mail]>
Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue
Newsgroups: news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy,news.admin.policy

In article <[e-mail]> "William C. Hulley" <[e-mail]> writes:
>
>we can assume that three things will happen if rick enacts his
>delightfully sensitive censorship scheme:
>
>    - his site will be cut off from the rest of the net,

Perhaps.

>    - another anonymous site with a different naming scheme will be started
>      within hours,

Almost certainly.

>    - someone will try to post anonymously and when that post is
>      "moderatedly moderated" he or she will contact the EFF and the ACLU
>      and begin, probably through the courts, an action to protect our
>      first amendment rights.

Uh, don't bet on it.  The First Ammendment only applies to GOVERNMENT
censorship, and only within the US.  Private companies do not have to abide
the First Ammendment.

--
Karl Denninger ([e-mail])     | You can never please everyone except
Data Line: [[phone]]        | by bankrupting yourself.
                LIVE Internet in Chicago; an MCSNET first!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 03:03:16 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy

[e-mail] writes:
    "Two wrongs does not make a right."

Quite so -- I'm not recommending it.  But in order to have applied that
aphorism, you must have acknowledged that what Johan is doing is wrong.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 03:05:05 GMT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue
Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy

[e-mail] writes:
   Can you set up an appropriately designed killfile to
   kill clumsily-forged cancel messages?

Attempts to do what Mr Depew is planning are not (I would think) done
in what could be described as a "clumsy" fashion.  The right way to
forge-cancel a posting is to use the original posting's own headers,
then rip the Path:, invert Message-Id: into Control: cancel, and above
all else leave the From:, Date:, and other headers intact.

Except for the odd Path: that will inevitably result (the origin site
will appear to have odd neighbors), it's be quite indistinguishable
from a normal self-cancellation.

------------------------------


Newsgroups: news.admin.policy,news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,sci.space,alt.privacy
Path: crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!network.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!att-out!cbnewsh!cbnewsh.cb.att.com!wcs
From: Bill Stewart [phone] <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Threat of mass cancellings was Re: Anonymity is NOT the issue
Organization: Electronic Birdwatching Society
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1993 00:03:39 GMT
Message-Id: <[e-mail]>
In-Reply-To: [e-mail]'s message of Fri, 12 Mar 1993 23:56:22 GMT
References: <[e-mail]> <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
    <[e-mail]>
Sender: NetNews Administrator <[e-mail]>
Nntp-Posting-Host: rainier.ho.att.com
Lines: 24
Source-Info:  Sender is really [e-mail]
Source-Info:  Sender is really [e-mail]

In response to the anonymous mass assassination proposal,
   In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Dave Hayes) writes:
      How very nice of you.
      Have you considered that your actions may cause many news admins to cancel
      all control messages coming from your site?

Aside from the gross impoliteness, this brings up a technical problem -
for the popular news distribution systems, e.g. C News, NNTP, etc.,
who wins the race between a control message and a site's killfile,
if it has one?

Can you set up an appropriately designed killfile to
kill clumsily-forged cancel messages?  My guess is that if you can,
it would probably include a filter to kill all cancellation messages
from well-known anonymous-posting sites,
which is an interesting *anti*censorship application.
Perhaps it could also automagically generate responses mailed to the assassin,
until he publicly recants?
--
#                Pray for peace;      Bill
# Bill Stewart 1-908-949-0705 [e-mail] AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ
# Sacrifice is when you give up something valuable that's *yours*.
# Making other people give up valuable things of *theirs* is called
# other things :-)    Keep your politicians honest out there!

------------------------------

End of Space Digest Volume 16 : Issue 309
------------------------------